The Most Transformative Years of Rock Music Were the 1990s - Part 2: 1994-1999 Punk's Pop Rebirth and Third Wave Ska

by Isaac Kuhlman September 22, 2024

Anthony Merchant: Anthony Merchant is the host of the Power Chord Hour podcast, a show dedicated to rock music, and he also hosts a program on Jamestown, New York's 107.9 WRFA called Power Chord Hour. With a deep knowledge and passion for various rock genres, Anthony explores the evolution and impact of rock music, sharing insights and engaging discussions with fellow rock enthusiasts.

Episode Summary:

In this engaging episode, Isaac Kuhlman and Anthony Merchant take a nostalgic trip through the music landscape of the 90s, exploring the rise and transformation of various genres such as grunge, geek rock, pop punk, and ska.

The conversation begins with an analysis of iconic bands like Nirvana and Weezer, noting their lasting influence and evolution over time. They highlight how bands such as Green Day, The Offspring, and Blink-182 ignited the mainstream pop-punk movement in the mid-90s, leading to a significant shift in the music industry.

The discussion then transitions to the ska revival in the 90s, spearheaded by bands like the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Reel Big Fish, and Less Than Jake.

They dissect the explosive popularity of ska and its infectious energy that resonated with fans on both coasts of the U.S. Additionally, Isaac and Anthony touch on the music business dynamics, debating the role of major labels in the rise and fall of certain bands and genres.

By the end of the episode, they reflect on how these music trends have ebbed and flowed, influencing contemporary music and leaving an indelible mark on their personal lives.

Intro Music: Birds Love Filters "Colorado" - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/dqD_jMhZGqU⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Outro Music: Speedway Sleeper "Snail Mail" - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtu.be/21-vX3bBagc⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Please consider purchasing some cool merch or some musical instrument accessories at our site - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://poweredbyrock.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Check out the FREE DIY Rock Career Playlist here - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_2jRJsJubw&list=PL465-TazTQf5tZ9zGHitfmWQpYsbVlF99⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can also learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://diyrockcareer.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠

Key Takeaways:

Nirvana and Weezer's Influence: The bands' rebellious spirit and raw energy set the iconic 90s rock tone.
Pop Punk Explosion: Green Day, The Offspring, and Blink-182 played pivotal roles in bringing punk rock into the mainstream spotlight.
Ska Revival: Bands like Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Reel Big Fish, and Less Than Jake revitalized ska with a high-energy blend of punk and brass instruments.
Evolution of Music Trends: Various music genres have evolved over time, with significant shifts influenced by cultural changes and the music industry.
Industry Dynamics: Major labels and indie labels played complex roles in the success and struggles of bands during the 90s.

Resources:

Follow Anthony's Stuff:

Power Chord Hour on IG - ⁠https://www.instagram.com/powerchordhour/⁠

Power Chord Hour on YT - ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@powerchordhour⁠

Words and Sentences About Things and Stuff Podcast - ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/0i7KUwQFTJOkMiSy9nIQEP?si=a8de0b9cef5d47f4⁠

Links to Related Content:

Part 1 of This Series - ⁠https://youtu.be/105TH1Q2klw⁠

Part 2 of This Series - ⁠https://youtu.be/j9m9eUBlBic⁠

Part 3 of This Series - ⁠https://youtu.be/Qm61JpgNH_k⁠

The Return of Home Grown Episode - ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skuVfveRgxs⁠

Timeline: 0:00 Episode Intro

1:23 The Evolution of Punk and Its Mainstream Resurgence

5:39 The Evolution of Punk Rock and Its Major Players

11:48 Green Day's Flair and Willingness to Play the Game

14:46 The Evolution and Impact of No Effects in Punk Music

18:02 The Ska Revival and Its Unexpected Popularity

24:47 The Evolution and Identity Crisis of Ska and Emo Bands

27:42 Real Big Fish's Trilogy and Its Predicted Career Trajectory

31:19 The Reality of Major Labels and Band Success in the Nineties

Transcript:

0:00:08 - (Anthony Merchant): But, I mean, it quickly became Nirvana specifically. I mean, one of my favorite bands growing up.

0:00:12 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Nirvana still doesn't seem like dad music. It's that rebellious spirit, like, you know, you would have as a young person. So right after Nirvana kind of came and went. Like, there's all of a sudden Weezer filling this gap of, you know, normal guys playing music again.

0:00:28 - (Anthony Merchant): But I still feel like there's a part of him that holds on to, alright, you fuckers don't want it. Like, you don't like Pinkerton, you don't like me being raw. Like, now I'm gonna give you the most dumb pop songs I can. I can write with four other guys. Just make a Weezer record, man. Just put loud power chords and, like, write a nice melody. And it's like, you know how to do this yet he won't.

0:01:08 - (Isaac Kuhlman): All right, so let's change tack here. Let's talk about the next transformation. So we already had grunge, we already had geek rock. Now we're going to talk about pop punk coming back. So this is. This isn't really like pop punk was ever massive, but punk kind of had this underground following. The Ramones kind of made it sort of big in the late seventies, early eighties. There were other bands, like descendants and stuff that kind of out there making music, you know, there's a lot of other bands. I don't want to try to name them all from the early eighties. But basically it stayed underground for most of the eighties. Like, it only had a couple times where it would perk up his head.

0:01:42 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And then all of a sudden, you know, bands like Green Day, the Offspring, Blink 182. All these bands came up in a very short period of time. Basically. You know, 94 was Green Day in the offspring. Rancid was right there after, I think, 95, 96, blink 182. All these bands just started growing like crazy. And it was different now because I think when I. When I look at Green Day particularly, I think that album kerplunk.

0:02:10 - (Isaac Kuhlman): As soon as Kerplunk came out and anybody who listened to Kerr Plank just knew this band was going to be good. Like, I actually do not like Dookie as much as I like Kerr Plank. And I like Insomnia the best of all, which is crazy.

0:02:22 - (Anthony Merchant): That's my favorite record, insomniacs. They're best. I had a friend convince me. I didn't think that until, actually, I did a podcast with a friend a couple years ago. I told him to pick the Green Day record and he picked Insomniac. And up until then, I thought it was like, nimrod or Dookie was my favorite. And I'm like, no, Insomniac's the greatest Green Day record, hands down.

0:02:40 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yep. And I agree. Like, I sit there and I actually thought about this, and this is a very, very interesting fact. I thought about this when the new Green D album came out this year. I said, the last time I could actually sit through even most of a Green Day album was 1995, when walking contradiction came out as a single. That was the last single by Green Day that I actually liked until this new album. I was like, no wonder I'm not a big fan of Green Day, because it's took. It took them 20 or 19 years to make a song that I actually thought was, like, a really good song.

0:03:13 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I fricking hated nimrod. I hated warning. Warning. I. Warning was okay. But the. The musical, the american idiot. American idiot. I freaking hated all that. I was like, this is all. I get what you're doing. You're bored. You got something. You want a concept to do this. I just don't think they're that band to make that work for me. Like, I was like, you know, prog rock bands can do this all day, but a punk band just seems pretty, like, pretentious. Like, very pretentious. Like, my chemical romance did it. I was like, black Parade. They have some really good songs on there, but that album is. Is very pretentious. And I was like, I don't really care for that.

0:03:49 - (Isaac Kuhlman): My. My point being here is that when Kerplunk came out, I was like, that is like, I was old enough to know, like, I heard Kerplunk before Dookie because my brother actually lived in Portland, Oregon. I grew up in the midwest, but our parents were separated, so I was living with my mom at the time. He's living with our dad, and he's like, dude, you gotta check out this kerplunk album. It had welcome to paradise and a couple other. Like, she, I think, was on there.

0:04:13 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I was like, well, this. This is fucking great. Like, this sounds great. Like, I don't know what this is. Like, I didn't know what punk was at the time because I didn't know punk existed, right? Like, there was nothing in my brain that I didn't know. I knew of the Ramones, but I didn't know they were a punk band, right? The phrase punk just meant like, somebody who was kind of like, you know, kind of like a semi criminal. Like, you know, like, it's just kind of like a scumbag right? Like, that's what punk.

0:04:38 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And I was like, well, wait, there's a music genre called punk, and this is what that is. This is pretty cool. Soon as that happened, you know, Dookie came out and actually, I liked a long view a lot better than I like basket case off that album. I liked welcome to paradise or when I come around, sorry, when I come around as well, and then some of the other ones. But basket case, I'm like, all right, it's whatever. Like, it's very fast. Like, cool.

0:05:03 - (Isaac Kuhlman): But I didn't even think offspring was punk at the time until people, you know, later, we're like, they were punk band. I was like, I thought they were an alt rock band. Like, they sounded alternative rock to me. I was like, I don't understand how they're punk. But whatever, that led to all these other bands. So again, same thing. Whirlwind effect, right? Like this wizard of Oz, Tornado. Yeah. Started getting signed. Every single punk band that you could possibly think of, you know, Rancid, you know, obviously Operation IV would have probably been signed had they stayed together. But Rancid became a band. They got signed and then, you know, independent record labels, like Fat Records, drive thru records, all these other things kind of coming later.

0:05:39 - (Isaac Kuhlman): What was your perspective? I know again, you were 1992. You're born in 1992, but you've been able to look back on this as a different perspective. I lived through it and I'm like, I couldn't imagine how fast was all happening because to me it was like, well, this is just how music is. It grows this fast. But it doesn't. Clearly it doesn't because for the last 25 years it hasn't. Right? So what's your perspective from. From your newer than me on planet Earth?

0:06:04 - (Isaac Kuhlman): You know, age. Age range?

0:06:07 - (Anthony Merchant): I mean, all those bands you mentioned, I mean, I love them all. The interesting thing is, like, and again, it goes back to that age thing where, like, I got, like, I remember my parents listening to not Smash, but Americana. Like, that's where, like, I remember that being radio. Like, I remember those songs on the radio, my parents listening to them. And then I got into them a couple years later, starting with Americana.

0:06:28 - (Anthony Merchant): Like the. I think the weird thing with me is not weird, but I guess it's that thing when you get into bands once they've been around for a while where it's not chronological order. So, like, smash, I didn't. Smash was like the third record or whatever I heard from them. It wasn't the same. You know what I mean? Like, it was kind of like, I.

0:06:44 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Think their third record that they actually made, which people think was their debut album, which is crazy because it's not.

0:06:49 - (Anthony Merchant): No, it's not. They have a couple. I mean, because they're another one. A lot of those bands, it's interesting, the bands who kind of defined the nineties, a lot of people forget. It's like. It's not like they existed, right? In 1990, a lot of them were around like 87. 88. I mean, even Kerplunk was. No, Kerplunk was 91. I think the first Green Day. First Green Day record was 88 or 89. Like, I mean, I know it's on the very end of it, but, like, same with Nirvana. I mean, bleach, I think. I think bleach was like 88, 89. I think the first Nirvana 89 or.

0:07:17 - (Isaac Kuhlman): 90 somewhere in there. Yeah, yeah.

0:07:18 - (Anthony Merchant): And then I think offspring too. The, like, the record or two that before Smash was like 88, 89. So I don't know. I think that's interesting. But no, a lot of these bands, I got in, like, either on their second record, like, even with blink, like, I remember take off your pants and jacket coming out. I don't really remember enem of the state coming out. Like, those songs are around. But, like, you know, I don't know. There are bands I think I found on their, like, saw, not their sophomore, but their second big record after they already had that one.

0:07:46 - (Anthony Merchant): But I mean, all those bands you mentioned, I mean, I think they were still gateways. I mean, like, offspring being one of the earliest, like, rancid I got into later. Rancid, actually, I got an outcome, the wolves, in like, 2010. Like, way past the point, you know, like I. But I. It was another one where, like, I knew some of their songs. I might have even already been listening to op Ivy before I listened to Rancid. Like, I don't know, getting into things at weird times.

0:08:11 - (Anthony Merchant): But, like, that. That era you're talking about, the end may be my favorite bands. Like, I mean, I can. I've gotten into other things since, but, like, yeah, like, the core of bands like Blink, like Green Day. Green Day. Another one, Mandev, like, american idiot was the one, you know, because again, 0405, like, that was what? You know, like, I was aware of them. I remember, like, when I come around on the radio in the nineties, but it was probably a few years out.

0:08:35 - (Anthony Merchant): But, uh, you know, even that though, going back to your point for a second, I totally get like. And I like american idiot enough. But as time goes on, it goes far from my favorite. But that's one of those ones where if I was listening to them in chronological order, I can see why. If you liked what they're doing on Dookie and kerplunk, I'd be like, what the hell is this, too? Yeah, like, like, it wasn't weird for.

0:08:55 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Me because that's with me, and I'm.

0:08:57 - (Anthony Merchant): On the green days, actually, dude, to be honest. Like, I mean, Weezer, too. Like, Weezer, when I got into them, make believe was the record that came out. Like, Beverly Hills was a song on the radio and stuff. Like, it's. Once I listen to the other stuff, I'm like, oh, wait, this is kind of better. Like, this blue album and all. This is, like, much, much better. Like, I think Smash is a great record. I think Smash and out come the wolves.

0:09:21 - (Anthony Merchant): I mean, any of, like, the big ones that came out are still, I think, just some of the best. I mean, there's all those stories where, like, again, we're not forcing things how, like, epitaph records, when they put out Smash, like, Brett Gerwitz, like, almost lost his house or had to refinance and stuff to keep pressing copies of Smash. Cause it was like, oh, this thing's gonna sell a thousand copies.

0:09:43 - (Anthony Merchant): And it keeps selling and selling and, like, there's all these wild stories where it's a w. It's a weird problem to have. But, like, that album getting so big almost destroyed, like, epitaph and almost destroyed Brett Gerwitz, it's like the weirdest thing, but it really. That. It goes back to that real genuine, like, you know, no one thought anything about it for the. I think it's bendy thrown since. But for years, Smash was, like the. The most best selling independent record of all time.

0:10:09 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, up until I think maybe I don't even know what replaced it. But I think something has since then. But, I mean, again, that thing was on an indie label. Like, Epitaph wasn't was. It was then. It is now because of things like that. But same with rancid. When that came out, Epitaph was, like, just a thing to put out, like bad religion records and, you know, a couple other bands, but, like, it wasn't what we know it now. All those bands, that was their. That was their heyday, you know, those records coming out. But his mind cat records, Tim Armstrong, his stuff, like, all of that, I mean, it's not. It's not crazy now they're all kind of part of, you know, whatever. They've sold millions of records, but like, then it is crazy to look back. Like, yeah, no one. No one thought smash was something special.

0:10:51 - (Anthony Merchant): Nobody thought this was going to be even. Like, were you? I guess not. Because you said listening to Green Day was your kind of beginning. You didn't really know about punk. But the interesting thing to me about Green Day, and I really like dookie. But, like, looking back in retrospect, there's so many bands from that lookout records era. The. All the bands Green Day came up with, like the mister t experience, screeching weasel, the queers, like, any of these bands who were melodic pop punk, like who like, had kind of melody over power chords. Like, and I love Green Day, but my thing is, it's always interesting to me.

0:11:23 - (Anthony Merchant): Why were they the ones to break? Because I think there were. I mean, tons of their label mates on lookout had that same kind of sound and style. I mean, just Bay Area pop punk, really. I think a lot of bands from the Bay area were doing that. And it's just interesting that it was Green day that blew up over all of them, you know? And I like Green Day, but I don't know that there's anything extra special about them that wasn't, you know, special about, you know, other lookout bands and stuff of that era.

0:11:48 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, I always think that's interesting too. What made them big over the other ones.

0:11:52 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah, I think I can shed some light on that. And I would say it's their flair, the flair they have in the live show.

0:11:58 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, they do a good live show.

0:12:00 - (Isaac Kuhlman): The fact that they knew, I'm even saying before they. Their live show now is like, in my opinion, old, old man band stuff, right? Like, now their live show is like the Rolling Stones, the fucking Bob Dylan's. All this. All these bands have been around for long enough. You get all these effects and all these cool graphics behind you and stuff like that. That before that, they just knew they were gonna do something. Like, you could tell, cuz, like, as soon as they got Trey cool in the band, the attitude of that band changed immensely. Like, everybody just had confidence somehow.

0:12:31 - (Isaac Kuhlman): You know, they were. Every time they were playing, it was high energy. They're in your face, they're like yelling. They're like, having a good time with you. That doesn't happen, you know? Mister t experience for all. Like, I love that band. I don't think I've ever seen. I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about Mister t experience putting on a show like Green Day would.

0:12:49 - (Anthony Merchant): That's a very good point.

0:12:50 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah. Or you know, even, even other bands, you know, rancid doesn't put on a show like Green Day puts on. They're still a good band. They don't put on a show like Green Day. I think they make better music than Green Day and that's why I like watching them. But they don't put on a show like Green Day, especially in the early days. I remember seeing Green Day in like 1999 in their heyday.

0:13:08 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, wow.

0:13:09 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Smashing records or smashing guitars, smashing drum sets, lighting stuff on fire, on stage. Like that was before they had their own pyros and stuff. Like they were big enough then to do pyros. They still just didn't think to do it. Like, they were like, we'll create our own pyros. Like we'll just do whatever we want.

0:13:23 - (Anthony Merchant): They're just chaos almost. There's just their own chaos.

0:13:26 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah. So it was like they just have that thing that really good bands usually do when they know that they're going to be big. They just act that big right from day one and, and they just eventually break. Whereas a lot of people who are musicians think we just put out really good music and then we'll be famous someday. And it's like, that doesn't usually work. Like some of the best music is never discovered. Right? It's never going to be famous.

0:13:51 - (Anthony Merchant): Yeah, no, you are right about that. I mean, for one, the live show and also just the. I guess it does also come into like maybe not charisma. I don't want to make it sound like you have to like turn something on, but like there are like, if you're, if you're not willing to play the game a little. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't mean that like fucking sellouts or something. But if you're not willing to talk to labels, do a radio. You know, if you're not willing to get up at six in the morning to do like, you know, radio somewhere, do some of those things, you are right. You could write the best songs ever. But like, you're never going to get off lookout and onto a major if you're not willing to kind of play the game a little. And again, I don't mean that in a bad way at all, but I think you are right as you talk about that. That is a very good point off of what I was saying. It's like a lot of those bands, I love all those lookout bands, but you're right, I don't think all those guys were like willing to play so much the way that Green Day were willing to.

0:14:41 - (Anthony Merchant): And it paid off, obviously.

0:14:46 - (Isaac Kuhlman): But at the same time, there was still this underground punk movement going, Fat Records. You know, all these lookout drive in, all this other stuff was going or drive through records. All these other labels were popping up. No effects. They actually had a platinum album, punk and drublic, but it wasn't even on their label. So that record still has never had a platinum selling record. The only time that no effects every day was when they launched there on Epitaph in 1996. Five, something like that.

0:15:17 - (Anthony Merchant): I was gonna say, honestly, probably the best selling no effects records were all the ones on Epitaph because I think, I think so long and thanks for all the shoes. Might have been the last epitaph release.

0:15:28 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Could have been. May have been on fat Records. I don't remember off the top of.

0:15:31 - (Anthony Merchant): My head, but I tilted somewhere in there. Cuz like, it's almost. You're almost shocked when you see how long it took for, like, no effects to. Because you. To me, I naturally think of them on fat records, but you look back and like, no, not at all. And then you also have the pre epitaph. You have the mystic records and all, like the. All the stuff that kind of came before it. And it's funny because you do. I associate, you know, no effects with one label and one label only.

0:15:55 - (Anthony Merchant): Even though that's not true at all.

0:15:57 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah, I mean, they made most their money from, well, most their money as a band, probably from those albums off of epitaph. And you're right. I mean, as soon as pump up, the volume came out, you know, these are. These are the fat record labels. You didn't hear them on, you know, on like a big kind of buzz, right? Like, I like pump up in the valium. I like, you know, war on error isn't all these records.

0:16:19 - (Isaac Kuhlman): It was like, you just don't hear people talk about them. Like, everybody talks about punk and drum. Like, everywhere you would go. And when I was in high school, people would be playing that album, like all the time.

0:16:28 - (Anthony Merchant): I saw a band recently cover eat the meek, and it wasn't. It like, it was like a just bar with everybody. Like, it wasn't like just like punks or anything like that. Like they were just playing like nineties songs like Third Eye blind and Everclear and stuff. And they did eat the meek. Most of the crowd knew it. Like, I was shot. Like, I'm not like, again, I'm not talking about some dude who like a fucking battle vest on or something with, like, patches. I'm talking about, like, you know, like a 30 something year old couple drinking, like, you know, $10 cocktails or like, something like that. Like, I mean, like, I think some of those songs, even though they were never massive in the mainstream, more people know, like, eat the meek and even, like, linoleum and stuff like that than I. Than I think I even realized sometimes.

0:17:10 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I didn't realize linoleum was so, like, covered. I didn't realize that that was like, yeah, the song that everybody covered until linoleum came out and they were talking about, like, how many bands covered the song. I was like, really? That's the song. Like, I love that song. But, like, I figured it'd be like, you know, I don't know, kill all the white men before that. Or, you know, one of their more anthemic songs. Linoleum is just, like, a good album starter. But I guess that's probably why it. Most people have heard that because back then, people would listen to albums. Because you didn't just buy a single from no effects by a single. Mandev had to buy a compilation or you had to buy the album, right? So, yeah, I mean, there were some of those compilations out there that really helped revive this genre as well. And I think, you know, we can talk about pop punk coming back all day, but we do have a few more genres to talk about. And I think this is where it gets even weirder.

0:18:02 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And let's dig into ska because this kind of, you know, talk about, you know, even no effects, they had horns in some of their stuff, right? So. Oh, yeah, there was this punk ska kind of slashy back then. Like, you could be a punk ska band. Like less than Jake, real big fish. Some of them were very, very punk sounding with a ska, you know, section, like a horn section and stuff. But right about 1994 95, the mighty, Mighty Boston's album came out.

0:18:29 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Question the answers. I think that was 1994. This was, you know, the first time I had heard in my life a band playing ska music that wasn't reggae. Sca, right? Like, I knew what ska was. I knew what reggae was. This was not that why people were calling. Yeah. I was like, this is not ska music. Like, I get ska. It's like, very relaxed. It's laid back. It's like smoke a joint. Like music. This is high energy ska, which I had no idea was even a thing.

0:18:59 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Mighty, mighty boss fans have been doing it for like eight years to that point. I was like, what the hell? Like, they put out like five records or something. And that was like their favorite.

0:19:07 - (Anthony Merchant): They were around for so long before, like. Like any of those, like, records. Like, same with, like, the impression that I get, like, they're banned for like a decade before that song was like. You know what I mean? People don't realize that sometimes with them.

0:19:19 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah. The question. The answer is, I think it achieved gold status in 94. Then all of a sudden. No doubt sublime.

0:19:25 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, yeah.

0:19:27 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Mighty. My boss tones, let's face it. I think it's called. Right?

0:19:30 - (Anthony Merchant): Yeah, that's one of the impression that I get. That's like the big, big one. Let's face it.

0:19:34 - (Isaac Kuhlman): The actually platinum selling one, I believe so. You know, rascal King and all those other great songs were on that one. But it was like an. I think questioning the answers was it was an independent release as well. And it got gold status. It was the first time anything like that had ever been in in my years. I was like, what the hell? All of a sudden, California is covered in ska bands. Like, you could.

0:19:56 - (Isaac Kuhlman): You could not turn on a radio and hear a California sky band. Save the Save Ferris. You know, all these other bands were popping up. I was like, you guys don't have the same horn section? Where did all these horn players come from all of a sudden?

0:20:06 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, trumpet magically, like, all of a sudden everyone plays saxon trumpet.

0:20:12 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah. So it was very interesting to me that this kind of cropped up. You know, it was big on both coasts of America. So really in the middle of America, there weren't Scott bands, right? Like, not many. Like, from California up to, like, Boston. Like, nothing in between. It was, like, northeast, southwest, and that was pretty much it. But at the time, there was enough. And then there was a band in Florida called less than Jake that was kind of doing their own version of it, which was like, what the hell is going on here?

0:20:37 - (Anthony Merchant): What?

0:20:37 - (Isaac Kuhlman): How does this pocket of Florida get, like, sky bands all of a sudden? So talk to me about, like, did you ever get into this skyline? Because my brother was, like, biggest real big fish fan. He was huge in the state. Ferris. I love Scott boss tones. Less than Jake, you know, real big fish. Some of my favorite bands of all time. It was just, like, completely new. And we're talking about transformation.

0:21:00 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I had never heard anything like I had heard. When I heard Scott for the first time. I was like, what the fuck is this, Scott?

0:21:06 - (Anthony Merchant): I mean, I'm. I am definitely a sca fan. And I think it's kind of interesting because that is one where, like. Like, I definitely remember, like, all those songs, like, on tragic kingdom and stuff. Being on, like, MTV and Vh one, it's. It's like I was again, like, you know, four, five, six. Like, I'm not actively, like, you know, I wouldn't say I was like a sca fan, but, like, you know, I definitely remember the no doubts and things like that.

0:21:32 - (Isaac Kuhlman): You were radio in your room singing into a mirror. I'm just.

0:21:35 - (Anthony Merchant): Yes, exactly. Just singing along a little. Don't speak if I'm feeling a little down that day. But, like, it's interesting because, like, I was in same with, like, the impression that I get. I definitely remember, like, the boss tones on. Then you get into also, like, the. The big band shit that kind of came with that, like the big buddha or what is it? Big bad voodoo daddy, the squirrel nut zipper. The, like, the adjacent bands that weren't. They're not ska. They're not ska punk, but they definitely were big because of that.

0:22:03 - (Anthony Merchant): I think even, like, Ryan sets her orchestra. I don't think got, like. I think even things like that got help because ska was a thing. If you're. If we're being honest. Like, I think there was a reason those things got, like, a moment in time, too. And I think some of it came from that whole ska era. But me, like, personally getting into ska bands on, like, a level where again, like, going and seeing them live and stuff, like, man, I got real big fishes. Turn the radio off in, like, 2009. Like, that was like, it was so later, like, less than Jake, I remember. And less than Jake's interesting because I got on with them during anthem, which is their. One of their more.

0:22:40 - (Anthony Merchant): Less ska like records. I mean, obviously it's still ska, but, like, you know, like, I remember fuse. I don't know if you remember fuse, but when that was on, like, you know, it was like, she's gonna break soon and stuff like that. Like, that was more of my intro to less than Jake. It wasn't like tiny quest.

0:22:53 - (Isaac Kuhlman): That's a huge pop song for them, too, which I think was probably their biggest pop single of all time for.

0:22:57 - (Anthony Merchant): And it's funny. Cause they don't seem to play it live often as much as I see them live.

0:23:00 - (Isaac Kuhlman): It's not really very alienating song and album. I think a lot of people that were true fans, including myself, they drop borders and boundaries and you're like, that shit is great.

0:23:09 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, hello, that might be my favorite borders.

0:23:12 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Those are the two best. And then fuse comes out and you're like, what? She's gonna break soon like this?

0:23:19 - (Anthony Merchant): I don't I like anthem, but this goes back to, dude, like, I don't blame anybody. Like, again, I like american idiot, but I got in during that time. I blame no one who liked. Like, I'm not stupid. I see the difference in there, and I get why. If you liked, like, like, I love pezcore. That's a great record. I like the lack of production. I like that you can hardly hear what they're singing half the time.

0:23:38 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, I also like anthem, but I do think they're two different things, and I don't try to. I would never argue with someone who's like, I like, you know, I like this, but not the other. I'm like, yeah, they're different enough, but, like, again, like, I got in them in a weird time where, like, that's my intro to less than Jake thing and more like pop punk. And then I think getting into the older stuff, like, way later on, like, again, I really like ska, but a lot of that was, like, 15 years ago. I probably really like a lot of those, like, third wave ska bands I didn't really get into as a fan until, like, way, way later. But it's still really good stuff. I mean, I.

0:24:12 - (Anthony Merchant): You know, if you like what was going on in punk in the nineties, it's hard for me to think that you don't at least like some of that. Like, I guess I do think it got oversaturated where, like, the bands whose all their names were puns, like, once we got to that era, wherever every name was, like, a pun on, like, a horn or something, like the, you know, I can't even think of one. But, like, just. Just that, where, like, ska became a pair, you know? And it's like, Scott's fun loving, and it was always kind of, you know, third wave Scott was always a little tongue in cheek, but, like, I think it did get to that parody at some point. It got almost a parody of itself, and that's where it started, kind of.

0:24:47 - (Anthony Merchant): And then you watched it, too, because how many of those Scott man's in the early two thousands had identity crises? And it's like they couldn't make. They wanted to be mature, but they, you know what I mean? Like, even real big fish, I think, had that for a while. I don't think they really knew their identity for a couple records, or they were in a weird. And a lot of those albums, I think, aged well. I like a lot of what those bands did, but a lot of those bands went through a weird. I think. I think Fat Records bands did, too, where you get big off a sound and then you don't want to keep doing that sound. So you try to, like, you do everything you can to, like, alienate your fan base, yet try to, like, build a new one or get big.

0:25:21 - (Anthony Merchant): And then somewhere in there you come to your senses and find that balance of, like, making music that you're good at making, but also maybe making something that you still enjoy as an artist. But it goes through that weird patch. And I think the early two thousands were that for ska, where a lot of those bands put out one or two really good records. And then come 2001, 2002, it's like, including when emo and stuff starts coming out. And post hardcore, it's like you have your Thursdays and stuff like that, and it's like, that sounds nothing like real big fish. It's so the opposite of the happy go lucky kind of goofiness of like, you know, turn the radio off and now you have, like, understanding in a car crash or, like, you know, for the workforce drowning or something. And it's like, yeah, you know, like, I don't think Thursday would work with horns. Like, I don't think they're the same, you know? And I love both again, I love.

0:26:07 - (Anthony Merchant): I love the post hardcore stuff, you know, that came later, which also, not to get sidetracked, but even with something like that, we talk about grunge killing hair metal, but people don't talk about, like, post hardcore killing Scott the same way, I'd argue things like that. Did you know new metal, post hardcore?

0:26:24 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Like, there were emo killed, you know, pop punk maybe, perhaps so, yeah.

0:26:29 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, no, they're actually, dude, this is actually goes right to that point because there were like, I love the New Jersey pop punk ska scene of the, like, mid nineties, early two thousands. And so many of those bands, if you literally go back, they put out a couple ska records and somewhere in there, they became an emo band. They changed the name and everything. Like all those guys, like, armor for sleep. All those guys were like, in ska bands in New Jersey before their armor for sleep. Like, you know, the.

0:26:56 - (Anthony Merchant): There's like, Houston calls who are on drive thru. They were face first. They were a sky band, New Jersey in the early nineties. Like tons of bands who had the same members, but all of a sudden started wearing, like, tight pants and a lot, like, darker shirts. Like, they started wearing, like, darker colors and, like. But I mean, truly, like, they. It's. There were many people who were playing hair metal who all of a sudden, in 1991, started playing, you know, stop playing solos and maybe played a little.

0:27:21 - (Isaac Kuhlman): More power and playing drop detune and all the time, like, what the hell?

0:27:25 - (Anthony Merchant): I mean, it's the same. But again, like, it goes back to that, where I'm always surprised with the. Just that grunge and hair metal. I think the same happened with, like, emo and Scott. Like, I just think things killed, you know what I mean? I think things come in and take over whatever it was before that, you know.

0:27:42 - (Isaac Kuhlman): This is something I actually want to dig into on a completely separate episode at some point. And hopefully I could talk to Aaron Barrett himself about it. But, oh, hell, yeah. I saw this random quote from him one time. He said, and I don't know where I found it. I've tried to look it back up. I can't find it easily, so I'm gonna have to look it up and do some more deep research. But he said that the first three albums of real big Fish were actually a trilogy, and he set it up, and this was supposed to be in a meta way, because even in the second album, why do they rock so hard?

0:28:09 - (Isaac Kuhlman): There's a part in there, he says, like, basically, when we stop becoming famous and we come back to the underground, will you bring us back? So his idea was sellout was actually meant to be like, this is us selling out. Obviously, they're just making the music that they were making at the time. Everybody hated them for, quote, unquote, selling out, but it's like, they didn't sell out, and it technically wasn't their first album, but the first of the three. Right. So, like, the first of three major record label releases.

0:28:34 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Why did they rock so hard? Was supposed to be the epic height of rock stardom. And so that's why they built it that way. That's why it says, why do they rock so hard?

0:28:43 - (Anthony Merchant): Even that album cover, you know?

0:28:44 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Exactly. It's. It's like, you know, kiss a looking kind of thing on the front cover or whatever. And then the third one is cheer up. Like, now that they're, like, back down in the underground and they, you know, they're not on a radio anymore, they're saying, like, cheer up, we're still here. We're still making in the music. This was supposed to be there, the trilogy. And he knew that this was going to happen because he kind of knew the record label business. He saw, he kind of foresaw where the music was going, and he was like, this is exactly what's going to happen. And it actually came true. So I actually really like to talk to him about this because it seemed like he was very clairvoyant about the trajectory of real big fish and what happened with rock music at the time.

0:29:21 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And if that wasn't. If that was true at the time, that he truly was going to make that a trilogy like that and knew it, and it wasn't just, like, hindsight later. I really like to hear and understand why he thought that that was because that's one of the most insightful three albums in a row that you could possibly make that came, came to fruition.

0:29:39 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, dude. No. Like, I've never heard that. And that's really interesting. I mean, I like all those records, and I'm with you.

0:29:45 - (Isaac Kuhlman): The.

0:29:45 - (Anthony Merchant): The cynical side of me, like, would just think that those were kind of autobiographical. And he's writing them as the band, you know, as, again, Scott's not so big anymore. They start doing different things. They try going different avenues. But the reason why I do think, and again, I've never heard this before, that's crazy interesting that he may not be lying is because when you think about it, would turn the radio off. Yeah, like, they didn't write, like, they didn't write sellout.

0:30:11 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, that song was their big hit, but it's not like they were big before. It's not like they were writing those songs. Maybe seemed autobiographical once that album blew up, but they were nobodies when they wrote those songs. And, like, you were talking about, they have that first album, I think everything sucks. Yeah, I think was the first one. And, like, you know, I don't. I guess. I guess when I think about it again, I always thought about it. He was writing as their career was kind of going up and then going down, but, like, I guess as I'm thinking about that specifically, would turn the radio off, is, I guess he did write those from a perspective that they weren't at yet. I mean, you think of it because that album, obviously the future during the.

0:30:50 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Process of recording the album, which is what I.

0:30:52 - (Anthony Merchant): In some ways, I wonder if he almost manifests that though, too, with, with real big fish when it's like, if you think this is going to happen the whole time, because I have heard bands, and I always wonder that, too, where, like, some of the bands from the nineties who, the bands who we've kind of talked about, where, like, you're almost surprised they're on a major label. Sometimes you'll talk. You'll hear them talk about, like, oh, we knew we were never going to get big, so, like, we took the major label money and we did one or two records, but we knew it was never going to be a thing.

0:31:19 - (Anthony Merchant): But I, again, the cynical side of me goes, I don't think you thought that. I think in hindsight you go, well, we're, you know, and I'm like, bullshit, man. Like, if you could have been an arena set, like, you wit, if you could have, those videos would have caught. They would have been huge. You would have been on the radio, you would have played arenas. Like, you know, sometimes I call out, there are some people I think are genuine about that, and I think they are. I think they were happy with a major label wants to put this out. Well, that's crazy. I have, I don't think we're ever get big, but that's fine. We'll get, we'll get that one time with, like, a dream producer in a dream studio and then we'll, like, fuck off back into, like, dive bars and stuff. Like, I think some people are that, but I think a lot of them are more the hindsight of, like, I think you tried. You at least, like, you're acting like you're not now, but I think when you signed to, like, Geffen in 1995, like, I kind of call bullshit if you act like we never want it. Like, we didn't want that to blow up or get big. It's like, I think you did.

0:32:14 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, I think maybe you can come to peace with it later that it didn't happen, but I don't know that I always believe when it's like, no, we signed to a major and never thought anything would happen.

0:32:24 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Hard to believe when they're like, oh, we didn't expect this album to do so well. We didn't want that this song to do so well. It's like, then why'd you put it out? Why'd you record it?

0:32:32 - (Anthony Merchant): That's always my thoughts. It's like, this is high. This is after you've played it a 1000, 20,000 times and it's like muscle memory and you don't have to think about playing the song. Like, maybe then, but, like, you're right. When you wrote it and put it on the record, I highly doubt you hated it.

0:32:48 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah, exactly. Even this song rocks. Let's put this on the album.

0:32:52 - (Anthony Merchant): As much as major labels get shit, like, as much as people will, like, they'll, you know, made and a lot of it is deservedly. And they did fuck over a lot of bands in the nineties, but I think there's times where bands who didn't do well on majors do use the cop out is like, the majors fucked him over. And I'm like, I mean, there's indie labels that fuck people over, too. There's just evil labels. There's just people in the music industry.

0:33:13 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Who do about tooth and nail records and their experience.

0:33:17 - (Anthony Merchant): Victory records, tooth and nail. Like, I love drive thru, but even drive through, there's some controversies. Like, you don't have to be a massive label to, like, fuck over people. And it is funny how I think some bands from that era, like, again, they blame it on, like, oh, well, the majors didn't care. They did this and that. And there are true examples of, like, they shelved a band. And there's albums that to this day have never seen the light of day. Like, there are real true.

0:33:41 - (Anthony Merchant): We got fucked over. But I think there's ones where bands just go, hey, man, you didn't catch on. Like, you're. You weren't the next big thing, and that's okay. But it's like, I don't know that it's like, Atlantic Records fault. Like, you know, sometimes Atlantic records or any of those majors put hundreds of thousands of dollars behind bands that never would have gotten that before, where it's like, I don't know that label, you know? Again, I don't love major labels, but, like, I don't think they're always the evil that people sometimes, including in the nineties, look back on them as.

0:34:25 - (Isaac Kuhlman): That's the show for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you learned anything or liked what you heard on the show today, please show us some support and subscribe to this channel and, like, comment and share this video with a friend or put it up on social media. I hate to keep asking, but without those small actions, the YouTube bots pretty much ignore this channel. Putting these videos out is a lot of work. If you want to show your appreciation, appreciation, please consider purchasing some of our musical accessories or merch from our store@poweredbyrock.com.

0:34:50 - (Isaac Kuhlman): you can read our blog and follow us in the links below as well. Those are the plugs, and that's all I have. I'll see you soon for the next episode. Until then, rock on.