The Most Transformative Years of Rock Music Were the 1990s - Part 3: 1991-1999 The Rise of Rap Rock and NuMetal
Anthony Merchant: Anthony Merchant is the host of the Power Chord Hour podcast, a show dedicated to rock music, and he also hosts a program on Jamestown, New York's 107.9 WRFA called Power Chord Hour. With a deep knowledge and passion for various rock genres, Anthony explores the evolution and impact of rock music, sharing insights and engaging discussions with fellow rock enthusiasts.
Episode Summary:
In this captivating episode, Isaac Kuhlman and Anthony Merchant dive deep into the transformative era of 1990s rock music. They discuss the seismic shifts within the genre, from the rise and fall of grunge to the emergence of ska, emo, and new metal. This episode illuminates the ways in which these subgenres shaped not only the music industry but also the cultural landscape of the time.
The conversation starts with an exploration of the grunge movement, highlighting bands like Nirvana and their influence on the subsequent waves of rock.
The latter part of the episode focuses on the birth and evolution of new metal and rap rock, spotlighting bands such as Korn, Limp Bizkit, and Nine Inch Nails.
The duo reflects on Rage Against the Machine's groundbreaking influence and their politically charged lyricism that set the stage for many bands that followed. They also touch on the lasting impact of these genres and the changing landscape of rock music up to the present day.
Intro Music: Birds Love Filters "Colorado" - https://youtu.be/dqD_jMhZGqU
Outro Music: Speedway Sleeper "Snail Mail" - https://youtu.be/21-vX3bBagc
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Key Takeaways:
- The 1990s were a highly transformative era for rock music, seeing rapid shifts in popular subgenres such as grunge, pop punk, ska, emo, and new metal.
- Rage Against the Machine was a revolutionary band that combined high-energy music with deep political activism, laying the groundwork for new metal and rap rock, although they indirectly influenced bands they were philosophically opposed to.
- The conversation underlines how some songs from the 1990s have transcended their genres, becoming cultural anthems that continue to be celebrated in mainstream venues like sports events.
- There’s an inherent challenge for bands that follow a massive hit, as trying to replicate their success often fails, while those who stay true to their originality garner long-term respect.
Resources:
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Words and Sentences About Things and Stuff Podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/0i7KUwQFTJOkMiSy9nIQEP?si=a8de0b9cef5d47f4
Links to Related Content:
Part 1 of This Series - https://youtu.be/105TH1Q2klw
Part 2 of This Series - https://youtu.be/j9m9eUBlBic
Part 3 of This Series - https://youtu.be/Qm61JpgNH_k
Episode About The Death of Rock Music - https://youtu.be/5MTrSWEenQc
Episode with Chris Ballew from The Presidents of the United States of America - https://youtu.be/IFc2Q-05H6c
Timeline: 0:00 Episode Intro
1:23 The Evolution of Rock Genres in the 1990s
4:22 Rage Against the Machine's Impact on Political Awareness in Music
6:30 Rage Against the Machine's Influence on 90s Music and New Metal
15:27 The Nineties: A Transformative Decade for Rock Music
21:03 The Timeless Power of Rock Music in Uniting People
27:00 A Musician's Journey from Stardom to Contentment
28:38 The Evolution and Impact of Music from the 90s to 2000s
32:50 Kurt Cobain's Unreleased Collaborations and Industry Rebellion
36:48 The Fragile Balance Between Artistic Integrity and Fan Expectations
Transcript:
0:00:08 - (Anthony Merchant): But, I mean, it quickly became Nirvana specifically. I mean, one of my favorite bands growing up.
0:00:12 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Nirvana still doesn't seem like dad music. It's that rebellious spirit, like, you know, you would have as a young person. So right after Nirvana kind of came and went, like, there's all of a sudden Weezer filling this gap of, you know, normal guys playing music again. Green Day, the offspring, blink 182, all these bands came up in a very short period of time.
0:00:36 - (Anthony Merchant): For years, Smash was, like, the most best selling independent record of all time. Back to that, where I'm always surprised with just that grunge and hair metal. I think the same happened with, like, emo and Scott. Like, I just think things kill, you know what I mean? I think things come in and take over, whatever it was before that. I want to be the tower shifter.
0:01:10 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Talking about another major transformation in the nineties.
0:01:13 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, yeah.
0:01:13 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And that's new metal and rap rock, right? Like, you want to talk about the opposite of ska music or the opposite of pop punk. This is what new metal was, right? Corn, tool, you know, this industrial music, and then you have, like, rap rock, you know, flint biscuit, all that stuff. But this kind of actually started. I won't give the. I won't give this band the credit for starting it, but in the nineties, this kind of started with a band that still, to this day, one of the most famous rock bands in the world, and they haven't put out, or I don't think they put out an album in the last 15 years, to be honest with you. But that was rage against the machine.
0:01:50 - (Isaac Kuhlman): They started this high energy, anti everything, right? So, like, they started in the grunge era. Like, they actually put out their first album, I think, in 1990 or 19. 91, 91. Their self titled album, right, at the same time as Nirvana, nevermind. And that was one of the most popular albums of that year and one of the most popular albums of the decade. And then you look at who they've inspired, right? Like, oh, it might have taken a few years for some of this to kind of really latch on, because I think, again, grunge, geek rock, pop, punk, all this other stuff was kind of taking over the major fads, but all the while, underneath all that was this new metal and wrap rock kind of influence, like this underground kind of growth, right?
0:02:33 - (Anthony Merchant): Yeah.
0:02:33 - (Isaac Kuhlman): You know, like I said, corn, limp, biscuit, like tool, nine inch nails, all this kind of industrial kind of new metal type of stuff. And I won't lump nine inch nails and tool in that exact thing because, like, they weren't wrapping. But. But that kind of also helped carry that tune or that. That, you know, the music, instrumentation of a lot of that. Up to the point when corn started coming out with, like, adidas and limp Bizkit started coming out with, you know, fuck. What the fuck is there?
0:03:05 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Not break shit. The other one. Not break stuff, but the other one that got famous. Nuke nukey. Yeah, Nikki. I was like, I can't even remember the fucking name of the song. I can just remember him walking down the street in a stupid backwards yankees hat. But, yeah, so Nookie, when that came out, you know, that was one of the dumbest fucking songs ever written. But it was huge. That whole summer. I think it was, like, 1997 or something like that.
0:03:29 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Limp Bizkit was the biggest band in the world because rage against the machine laid the groundwork. You know, bands like Tool and Iron Nails laid the groundwork for the instrumentation for these bands to kind of come through, because if you listen to even Nookie, you hear that like, that. Whatever is. I can't remember the guys. Wes something or other from the band.
0:03:48 - (Anthony Merchant): The not sombrello guy.
0:03:50 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah, yeah. He's definitely inspired by, you know, corn and tool and nine Inch Nails and shit like that. And, you know, when I listened to raging, it's the machine again, that was one of those bands that I was like, I've never heard anything like this. Oh, yeah, tomorrow guitar work. The what they were saying and how they were saying it, the yelling, just straight up screaming in a song, like, at the top of your lungs, you know, like, just yelling, like, fuck the police, fuck the government. Like, all this stuff. It was like, nwa, but it was like.
0:04:22 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And I'm not saying that NWA wasn't highly educated, because a lot of those guys were pretty smart guys, but you could tell, like, rage against machine were, like, very well educated. They're talking about, like, oh, yeah. You know, massacres from around the world from, like, centuries ago, and, you know, the incan and aztec empires, and you're like, God damn. Like, this is some deep stuff.
0:04:42 - (Anthony Merchant): You learn things from listening. Like, there's, like, there's, like, I don't know, political social happenings, like, throughout history that I probably learned against the machine on. Like, they honestly, like, you're saying. I don't think you're wrong, because I do. I think they reference and probably educate a lot of people on things they wouldn't have known at all had they not gotten it through. Rage against the machine.
0:05:04 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yep. And it's crazy that you'd think like, more people would get that from music. But you didn't really get that in the seventies. You didn't really get that in the eighties. You didn't really get that until raging against the machine. And they basically did what Bob Dylan and the activists of the sixties against the Vietnam war. That carried over into the early seventies. But when I'm talking about bands like Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith, they weren't educating people on political activism.
0:05:29 - (Isaac Kuhlman): You have to go back to the sixties, like Bob Dylan, Arlo Guthrie and Woody Guthrie and all those guys. They're telling people, like, hey, let's talk about peace. Let's talk about the tragedies and the things that are happening around the world. Let's talk about social injustices that disappeared for, like, 20 years from, like, mainstream music. And, oh, totally. Reggie against the machine just said, it's not anymore. We're like, we're not white people talking about it. We're actually people of, like, color talking about, you know, these issues from our perspective.
0:05:57 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And it was. I'd never seen anything like that. It was like watching, you know, Mike Tyson in boxing at the same time, kind of in that same area, just coming up and punching people right in the face and knocking them out and saying, it's over. Like, you. You spent $50 to watch this match, and it took 1 hour or, like, 1 minute, right? Like, you sat there and watched the hype for an hour. Whole match was a minute.
0:06:16 - (Isaac Kuhlman): It felt like that. With rage against the machine. You're like, you know, you. If you ever. I didn't ever see raging machine live at the time or anything like that. But I assume, like, if people are sitting there waiting for them, come on at a show, and then all of a sudden that happens, you're like, oh, shit.
0:06:30 - (Anthony Merchant): Hit you in the face.
0:06:31 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah.
0:06:32 - (Anthony Merchant): Imagine seeing that before that first record, like, really hit and seeing them play, like, a small, like, I don't know, maybe even opening for somebody and, like, yeah, if they, like, came up, like, I can just imagine that being one of those bands were truly you remembering, like, you going, like, yeah, I remember the first time I saw them. They were just, like, an opening band. It just blows your mind.
0:06:52 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah, yeah. I can't even imagine. And I bring this up because people are going to. When we talk about the nineties, I cannot talk about the nineties without rage against the machine. Because they're easily one of my top five favorite bands of that decade.
0:07:04 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, they're so good.
0:07:04 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I don't know where they would fit. But goddamn if I don't love, like, pretty much every one of their songs. And like I said, you know, there are some songs that were little, whatever, like, kind of filler songs, but at the same time, like, they fit and they have a message usually. So it's like, they're still pretty good.
0:07:17 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, yeah.
0:07:18 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I think if it wasn't for that. And I. And I kind of also say into my head, like, damn it, raging is me. If you didn't. If you weren't so influential, you wouldn't have created bands like Limp Bizkit, on the other hand, and some of these other, you know, bands that I definitely.
0:07:30 - (Anthony Merchant): Disliked after I actually have thoughts on this. It's very funny you bring it up because, yes, I have thoughts on that, so.
0:07:36 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Well, you know, we'll talk about this. But, like, bands like Cornly Bizkit and Linkin park fuse that heavy metal with hip hop, creating this, you know, white people version of what, you know, rage against the machine kind of did. They made the suburban version of it. They didn't talk about, you know, the political activism anymore. They talked about doing it all for the nookie and more like the hair.
0:07:56 - (Anthony Merchant): Metal guys, almost more like reverting back, like, influenced by rage against the machine. But, like, you're talking about if rage were more Bob Dylan esque, like the limp bizkits of the world and stuff were more like a poison or a motley crue or something, in terms of the. Of the deepness of their lyrics.
0:08:14 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yep.
0:08:14 - (Anthony Merchant): The meaning behind them.
0:08:16 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And I think they drew a lot on the same crowd as that. So I think it was lower class and middle class kids that felt, you know, kind of disenfran, like, not disenfranchised by music, but essentially, they weren't being represented in music anymore because, you know, we're talking about middle income class, you know, ska, you know, middle to upper, upper middle income, you know, ska pop punk. Not pop punk, necessarily, but the suburban blink one, a two type pop punk, for sure, that started becoming like, you know, even geek rock. It's like they're elevating the, I guess, income level through the rock music. And then all of a sudden, new metal and all this other stuff comes back around, you know, ICP, all these other bands start coming back around, and it is that same, you know, lower middle class, middle income class kid, you know, especially white midwest, you know.
0:09:04 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Now, I won't say they all live in trailer parks, but it's kind of, you know, you get the picture of.
0:09:08 - (Anthony Merchant): The city, for sure.
0:09:10 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And I understand it like, I grew up in North Dakota, basically in trailer parks. When I was growing up, I didn't really like that. But I get that they were disillusioned by most of the nineties music. So right when this came back, and then you see, like, you know, Woodstock 99 and what was going on with that, really get the idea that they were ready to just throw shit up, you know, burn it down and tear it apart, right? Like, new metal and rap rock came back around, and that inner anger kind of started projecting outward, not just from music, but in action. And like, this. This surge of just, like, insane, like, inner repressed, like, kid just all of a sudden came out and I was like, what the fuck is going on? Like, I don't even like this music, but what is happening? Like, everybody's acting like, this is the greatest music ever now. Like. And it was.
0:09:57 - (Isaac Kuhlman): It took that middle class or lower income kidde I. And then spread it to every kind of person, right? Like, everybody was all of a sudden Fred Durst, and everybody was all of a sudden kid rock and Eminem and all this other stuff, right? So everybody thought they were like, this poor white kid. And I'm like, I really was a poor white kid. I didn't like this stuff at all.
0:10:14 - (Anthony Merchant): Now it's like, now it's like a selling point. It's like an aesthetic, and it sounds like you and I have the same feelings on it is it was never. It's never been my thing. It's funny because, like, I like the Deftones and the Deftones. I always hear people say, though, Deftones are a band who get. Who get lumped in with new metal bands, but there's tons of people who like Deftones, who like nothing else that are.
0:10:39 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I feel like they're like a melodic alternative, kind of like, you know, whatever you want.
0:10:44 - (Anthony Merchant): I feel like those guys would rather you not call them new metal, but, like, at the same time. And also, I think in the early two thousands, not to say that they didn't tour with those guys or have, you know, associations where it's like, oh, yeah, I get why somebody who likes corn probably also likes Deftones. They also probably toured together and stuff. But, like, they're, like, the exception of the rule for me where I like deftones and nothing really else from that era, but.
0:11:07 - (Anthony Merchant): And it's funny because they even wrote it down like you were talking about. The funniest thing to me is that rage against the machine. I do think you can give them credit for, like, new metal in the creation, but I don't think they'd want that. The funniest thing is, like, they helped garner in bands that they were not fans of at all. I don't. I think those bands stood for, like, something totally different. Like, if. If they were hoping to, like, influence people and, like, do something with music. I think it was totally the opposite of, I think most the bands that they. And to be honest, if you think of most bands who sound like rage against the machine, they sound like them. They don't have their politics. They don't. They don't have that. They don't address social issues in the same way. They just sound like them, but they don't. They don't, like, use. You know what I mean? Like, they don't use the platform the same way that rage does.
0:11:52 - (Anthony Merchant): And I think that's kind of interesting point to where musically they're taking from rage, but lyrically they're taking, again, from, like, a deaf leopard or poison, which is kind of weird. And you do see that there's, like, I don't know the exact quote, but I think it's Matt prior from the get up kids at one point said, like, if. If the get up kids are the reason that, like, all these pop punk bands and all these bands that I've influenced and stuff, like, I'm sorry.
0:12:16 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, I'm like, I regret it all. Like, and, you know, maybe it was, like, a vulnerable moment. I don't know if he'd take back what he said, but I'm pretty sure it was him who said something along lines. Because another one, we're like, get up kids influence so many bands that the get up kids absolutely detested that they wanted. Like, there's so many bands that, like, love something to write home about.
0:12:34 - (Anthony Merchant): And, like, Matt Pryor would never, like, just would never want a tour with them. Would never want, you know, I mean, that guy likes, like, super chunk and archers a loaf. He's more from, like, that indie rock camp, but, like, I think of him. Same with rage, where it's like, I think the bands you influenced are particularly the bands you wish you did. They're not cool. They're not really the cool ones to claim. But it's like, I. 100%. I'm sure that all the guys in limp Bizkit probably own a copy of Evil Empire.
0:13:01 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, I'm sure they were influenced by all of those rage albums before new metal got there. But also to give credit. And I never really realized that how early that first rage record was. Like, my God, like, to think of it early fucking nineties. Like, that really is revolutionary. Again. If that album came out in 1998, then it's like, you know, it gets lumped in there a little more. But you're not kidding when it's like, wow, that really did kind of blaze open a. A trail for new metal and things to come. They were not as good as it, obviously, but, like, the fact that that came out so early. Yeah, you.
0:13:37 - (Anthony Merchant): That has a direct influence as to why new metal got big. I think there's no way you can. You can't deny the influence on that with that record being out so early in the nineties.
0:13:49 - (Isaac Kuhlman): So we were talking about how. Or I was mentioning how cursive might be one of those, like, classically never covered. Yeah, no, rage is another one of those bands that, like, you can't cover them. Like, you can't play like, tom Morella, you can't sing like Zach de la Roca. It's just not possible. Right? So. Or de la Roche. I guess when we talk about covers, I actually saw a band try to. I think it was.
0:14:12 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I think it's bulls on parade, where it's, like, down there, like. Right? So, like, I think that's bulls on parade, if I'm mistaken. But I saw a band at a concert, a free concert, try to cover that song. And instead of the guitar player playing that, the lead singer was going wiki wiki, wiki wiki. I was like, oh, my fucking God. Are you serious right now? I'm like, it's not that hard. That's actually one of their easier rips to play. Like, what the fuck is happening right now?
0:14:44 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I was like, jesus Christ.
0:14:45 - (Anthony Merchant): The fact that no one in that band, like, from rehearsal studio to getting on stage went, hey, guys, maybe this isn't the best idea.
0:14:57 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Alright, so let's take a little bit of a wrap up here and talk about how we remember the nineties and how they're gonna be known for years to come. Obviously, in my opinion, I'm feeling this is actually probably, you know, it may seem subjective, but I feel like it's actually more objective on the matter because I think I've come to the conclusion that the 1990s were in fact, the most transformative decade for rock music due to all the shifting genres and popular artists of the day, the fads, just turning things over every two years.
0:15:27 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I'm curious, what are your final thoughts on this matter?
0:15:29 - (Anthony Merchant): I gotta agree with that. I think. I think there are. And it's funny because I don't know that I actively realize it until we're like, breaking it down like this. But you're right, it wasn't like, like, to me, if I look back at the think most of what was going on for, like, say, pop punk. Like pop punk stayed pretty consistent from 2010 to 2020. I mean, really what was on the radio for the most part, I think the songs that were big in 2012 pretty much sounded like what was big in like 2017. Like, I don't think there was, like a drastic, there wasn't a huge drastic change where you're right, with the nineties, it went so many places. Like, they're there.
0:16:05 - (Anthony Merchant): And again, like, I discovered some of the bands, like, like real big fish. I discovered them way after they had kind of their mainstream success. So I never saw them and, like, that way where they were like, you know, I guess I've heard them on the radio, but just, yeah, I didn't see them on MTV and stuff like that. It's crazy to think of some of the things that were big. And I also think it was an era, not that everything sold well, but again, going back to, there were bands that never before or after we're gonna get on a major label, there were bands who maybe it didn't work out, but, like, still those guys got like half a million dollars to, like, record for five months in like a, you know, a studio that the Beatles recorded in and, you know, work with your dream producer and get to, like, you know, get that support on tour to go play arenas with whoever, like, and again, directly, I think Nirvana being one of the biggest. I mean, and obviously that goes into even punk a couple of years later. I mean, I think without Nirvana, I don't think 1994 would have happened. I don't think the rancids and offsprings, like, I do think there's going to be so just distorted power chord kind of music, you know, that's a little faster, you know, not super solo kind of baked in punk, even if not all of it's straight up punk.
0:17:10 - (Anthony Merchant): But I mean, I think overall it is a, it is a decade that I think it'll stand. I want to say it'll stand that stand the test of time. I think it's weird because we're also at a time where I don't know if it's. If it's so prevalent because the people who are around during that time or just at an age where, like, I don't know if it's elevating it, you know what I mean? Like, people who are around for there want to hear that stuff again. So it's like maybe a comeback.
0:17:33 - (Anthony Merchant): We won't be able to know. We'll know in a couple more decades. Like, then we'll really know. But at the same time, like, you were talking about where, like, in the nineties, you weren't listening particularly to everything that people were listening to 2030 years earlier. Whereas now. Yeah, like, teenagers still, like, Kurt Cobain is still the same kind of figure that he was to, like, teenagers in 1994 as he was to me in like 2004, as I think he is in like 2024, you know?
0:18:02 - (Anthony Merchant): And then I think that whole thing's interesting because then I think there's bands in the nineties and I guess there's other eras, but there's mainstream cred and indie cred and bands who really had their heyday in the nineties and sold a lot doesn't mean they're the biggest ones of that era anymore. Like, you were talking about, like, talking heads and shit. There's bands who were maybe did okay in their heyday, but they got bigger way later on.
0:18:23 - (Anthony Merchant): Like Jawbreaker, again, Jawbreaker got way bigger after being broken up for decades and decades. And, like, people like, you know what I mean? Like, and there's bands now that I.
0:18:32 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Real estate fits in there.
0:18:35 - (Anthony Merchant): But yeah, they're another where they tour now. And, like, they've had fucking sold out shows these last couple tours. Like, there, you know, there. There is crazy. I think there is something to be said about being big in your era. Doesn't mean you'll be the biggest later. But I do also think it's wild because there's bands who hit on the radio in the nineties who have never left radio. Like, there's like.
0:18:55 - (Anthony Merchant): And I've interviewed a couple where after I'm like, holy fuck. Even like, Steven Jenkins from Third Eye blind. Like, I don't know that they ever left radio. I think semi charmed life is still played somewhere, somewhere out there on some commercial radio. Like, I don't think it. A day has never come since then where it's like, I think every day since that song blew up your everclears, you're like, you know, I don't know, even like, to some degrees, fastball or like, just fans. Were they. And I'm not saying they're new stuff, maybe. I'm not saying they're still selling records like they did the nineties, but there are songs that have never left radio, that have just been on radio since, like, the mid nineties or whatever and still play to the same rotation that they do that they did then. I'll even give this. I'll give you this.
0:19:39 - (Anthony Merchant): When I used to work in top 40 radio, I hosted the local or not the local rush hour. I host that now, but the retro lunch hour. And that was an hour of eighties and nineties music. That was all we would play. But like people wanted to hear all those, all the big song, like the ones I'm mentioning, people still, those were the most requested were like nineties and they were the nineties songs that really were. They hit at some point and never really left radio, you know, and same with Nirvana's and shit like that. Like those were the, those were the requests where, you know, it wasn't really the eighties and stuff like that. It was very much the nineties. A lot of bands we're talking about right now, like they've stood the test of time. Like, you know, whether you were there for it or you were born years after, people still have a fascination, I think, with the decade as a whole. And honestly, if I'm thinking of my favorite music, it's the nineties. Like, most of my favorite bands, most of the best albums came out in the nineties. Like, it's just when I start thinking about it, that's just, I think facts, for me.
0:20:38 - (Isaac Kuhlman): It was really the last hurrah for rock music to this point. Now, I'm not saying rock music is dead. I did do an episode on that, but not saying it's dead, I'm just saying as far as mainstream. Yeah, prevalence goes, it's not there right now. Right. But it is always interesting to me because I've pointed this out before, but you will hear like, you go to an arena, baseball game, a hockey game, you know, football, basketball, whatever.
0:21:03 - (Isaac Kuhlman): What songs are they playing on to get everybody hyped up? It's, you know, it's not usually like, you know, the latest Drake track or something like that. And here's the crazy thing, is that when those songs are played, everyone in the stadium knows every single word. And even when they stop playing the music over the pa, everybody's still singing the song, right. It's. It's one of those things. It's the power of rock music. That's why I call my company powered by rock and this is the powered by rock podcast because it's one of those things that, it's a very common way to unitevere people. If I say it's no surprise to me, I am my own, well, instead of me, there you go. Like, everybody fucking knows the lyrics of this song, right? Like I could. I could pick any part of that song and you would know the next line for that song. It would be very easy when you have that power.
0:21:49 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Like, there's nothing like it in the whole world. And that's what the 90 to meet. The nineties to me was, was that they had this power. They were given this money from these record executives to say, unleash this power on the masses. Like, I know it existed in the eighties, seventies, sixties, fifties, right? But there were bands, like, lit. There were bands like fastball. There were bands like, better than Ezra there.
0:22:09 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Like, you know, even like, president, United States. I know you. I've talked to him too. I love that guy.
0:22:14 - (Anthony Merchant): Rules.
0:22:14 - (Isaac Kuhlman): But they were like, yeah, there were these bands that just made these songs that will forever be remembered for this weird period of moment in time where they got some freedom to release the songs that they wanted to release, and everybody fucking loved them and they still love them today, which is crazy that 30 years go by, 2025 years go by, and I can say like, that, you know, a song that, you know, I picked the first line of the song, not even the chorus of the song from my own worst enemy, and you still knew the next couple.
0:22:45 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, yeah.
0:22:46 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Like, these are. These are songs that when people listen to rock music, they get inspired by. They transform their way of thinking. They can even transform their mood for that period of time while listening to that song. Right? Like, not every song in the nineties was like, a happy go lucky song. Obviously, Nirvana was never that way, but it gave you hope, inspiration. It gave you something, right? Like, it gave, it brought something out of you.
0:23:09 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And it's just. It's just not given the chance these days. And that's what I hope for rock music is that there's a chance at some point in the near future where people are given the shot to give that power back to fans, to sing out loudly and have a good time while enjoying really good music. So that way, you know, like, rap music, you have to really listen to the lyrics to, like, speak at that fast volume or that fast pace or understand what they're saying half the time. Like, you don't see a bunch of people just like, unless it's like, maybe Eminem. Cause he has a way of making lyrics flow that people want to mimic. Right. But you don't hear, like, an entire arena of people spouting off a new Kendrick Lamar song or new Drake.
0:23:51 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Yeah, like, it's impossible. You just couldn't do it. Like, people will be talking too fast. You wouldn't be able to hear what they're saying. But when somebody hits a high note in, like, you know, my own worst enemy or white snake or one of these, you know, rock ballads or any of that stuff, like, you know that that's the moment in time when everybody in that arena is like, yes, this is. This is why that that song was ever made. It's so, like, 60,000 people at one time could have a great time.
0:24:15 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, no. I mean, how about, like, blur song, too? Everybody just goes that. Fuck. Even though. Yeah, even though it's not really representative of the rest of, like, the blur catalog. And I know it's like, it's supposed to be, like, kind of a parody of grunge and all that, which is also funny, but, like, still, like, everyone. You don't have to, like, brit pop or, like, weird indie bands and stuff. Like, you're right. Like, you're talking about that there's people who know no other lit songs. They probably don't really care to. And I actually like lit.
0:24:44 - (Anthony Merchant): That specific album, I think, is just full of pop rock gems, but, like, there are just ones where it transcends it wherever. You don't even have to be a rock fan. But, you know, those songs. You like those songs. If you're in a bar, people play them on the jukebox. And again, they may not. They may not like rock music at all. Have none in their collection. It's not what they normally listen to, but there's those songs that just transcended. It doesn't matter.
0:25:06 - (Anthony Merchant): They play it on the jukebox, or that's what they sing at karaoke, or that's what they scream at the top of their lungs at a fucking sports event. Like, you're right. They transcend it. Where. I mean, you don't. You could listen to nothing but country or nothing but hip hop or nothing but top 40 radio, but there. It doesn't matter. Like, that lit song, everyone fucking knows it. That blur song, everyone knows it. Or, like, when blister in the sun comes on, everyone knows when to fucking clap at the snare. Like, you know, which, actually, funny enough, I had their original drummer on, and he says it's funny. Cause everyone kind of does that clap at sporting events. And he's like, it's the funniest song for sporting events. It's just a song about a guy being strung out on drugs, just wandering the streets of. And he's like, there's kids and stuff, like singing it at football or, you know what I mean? Doing the claps and shit. And it's like.
0:25:49 - (Anthony Merchant): I mean, same with semi charmed life. It's all about, like, smoking crystal meth and it's like everybody's, like, bopping along, dancing to it. But yeah, like, there are. There's ones that just transcended it. You don't have to even, like, a genre. You don't have to know any other songs from those bands. Some songs, I think, go, like, in a way, my own worst enemy is bigger than lit themselves. You know what I mean?
0:26:11 - (Anthony Merchant): It's like, I've heard people say, like, weed is, like, teenage dirt bag is bigger than weedus. There's songs that. There's songs that overshadow. And no disrespect to any of those bands, both bands of them. I like songs that aren't their hits. Like, I like songs outside of those, but, like, you know, it's just. I think, a matter of fact, it's like. I think there's, you know, I realize I might want to hear the other songs on a place in the sun. I might want to hear deep cuts, but there's other people who only know the one or two songs. But my God, do they love those songs, you know? I mean, it's not a. It's not slapped in the face of those bands.
0:26:42 - (Anthony Merchant): It's like, if anything, it's a credit to, like, you wrote a song that could stand the test of time in that way. And even if it's only one song, you should be happy as fuck that you got to do that and even be a part of, like, pop culture, you know, in that way.
0:26:54 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I think anybody who complains about a single being that massive is like, well, give all the money back.
0:27:00 - (Anthony Merchant): Exactly.
0:27:00 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I'm not going to do that.
0:27:01 - (Anthony Merchant): Exactly. Like, you've lived off of it. I mean, like, really there and, you know, like, chris Blue. Like, he's a good. Like, he's a very. He's an even kiltered. Where. I believe him when, like, he was, like, he had his hits, he had his time in the sun, but now he likes to just do his own thing. And I think he's happy being out of the spotlight, but he also isn't like, no, fuck that. I don't want to talk about peaches. Like, don't bring up lump. Like, don't do that. Like, he'll gladly talk. He played fucking peaches in the middle of our second interview. He pulled fucking down his base and started playing peaches for me. Like.
0:27:31 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, that's the. That's the attitude to have like, that guy has written millions of songs after, and if you want to hear them, they are there. And I want to. And I like what he's done past the big stuff, but he has nothing. I think he's flattered that, like, you know, curb your enthusiasm this year, I think made, like, references to peaches or something. You know what I mean? Like that he's still in pop culture. I still see people reference the presidency of the United States of America, and he celebrates that. He's not a jaded, bitter guy who's like, I wish it was still 1994. Like, I believe when he's like, no, I'd rather just be really chill. Like, I made my money.
0:28:05 - (Anthony Merchant): I was on a major label. I made my money, I did my thing. Now I'm gonna go do my own thing now. You know? And I think more people, if they had that, you know, I've never had a hit song, so I can't say, you know, how you should be. But that guy seems more well adjusted than some people where it's like, hey, you know, maybe. Maybe, you know, five albums later, people won't still be there, but it's like, goddamn, like, you wrote that song or you wrote that album, you know, even if it was for 1994, dude, you dominated 1994. That's fucking awesome.
0:28:38 - (Isaac Kuhlman): That's why I'm like, I still look back on that decade. I mean, there were a bunch of bands in the two thousands and 2010, Fallout Boy, my Chemical romance, some of these paramore, a lot of these other bands that became famous, but even just the bands that I named all kind of fit in the same niche. They all kind of grew off of the things that were coming from the nineties. They didn't totally transform it. They just kind of changed what the.
0:28:58 - (Isaac Kuhlman): What the attitude about the music was kind of like, instead of, like you say, like, you know, semi charm kind of life is about heroin, and all of a sudden it's a very happy song, right? Or whatever it was. I think heroin or something like that. Crystal meth, I think. But, you know, instead of that, the twenties and the two thousands and 2010s kind of fit the lyrics to the music a little bit more, I think upplayed the fact that if it's a, you know, sad song, it's going to be sad music.
0:29:23 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And that kind of just kind of was like the next logical thing. So I think that the transformative nature of the nineties, and I mentioned this in my lap, my last recorded podcast, that I think it changed so much that it might have killed rock music. To a certain degree, like, there was nothing else to really do except for kind of redo what already was there and just take it to the next logical step and see what would come of it. Like what it was. Pop punk next. What is emo next? What is new metal next?
0:29:52 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And nothing really ever replicated that, that splash, right? You can't, you can't be new again. You can't, you know, lightning can't strike twice, but you can still make good music and people that like, that can still kind of follow it as long as. As long as the, you know, recording artists and the record label still promote it and put it out. But it just wasn't the same effect. Right.
0:30:13 - (Anthony Merchant): Well, I have a thought. I mean, not to, I mean, I could talk forever about this stuff, but, like, I kind of want your thought on it because what you're talking about, do you think the transition from the eighties to nineties, because we're talking about it there was like, run just so different from hair metal and what was going on. Do you feel like maybe one of the shortcomings of the two thousands was that people were still trying to build off what was going on in the nineties instead of trying to go against it?
0:30:35 - (Anthony Merchant): Even though I love what we're talking about, I love what was going on in the nineties, but do you think they tried, like you're saying it's like when a movie that's really good does the sequel and it's like, no, man, it's gonna be bullshit. Like, go on and do other things and let this be its thing. It's like, you know, maybe the nineties, in a way, maybe should have been left alone. Like it should have been left there and then you should have, like, maybe people should have tried doing more after. Like, I don't know, like, do you have any thoughts on that? Because now we're talking about it.
0:31:00 - (Anthony Merchant): I think the beginning of the nineties were more transformative and trying to go differently than what the eighties were, whereas the early two thousands are more of a continuation, I think, of what we're happening in the nineties, including in the early or in the late nineties. Like a lot of what was going on in the late nineties that were biggest just kind of continued on, you know, like with new metal and shit like that, new metal pop, punk, like all that kind of just continued on instead of trying new things, you know, in the new millennium.
0:31:25 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And I think even 2010 did that. With the two thousands, there wasn't much of a transition. It was just kind of a continuation. It wasn't like a drastic transformation.
0:31:31 - (Anthony Merchant): I'd agree with that.
0:31:32 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I think you're right. And I think. I think what would have been a better option for a lot of bands is instead of trying to ride waves and ride coattails, is go out and create great music that, you know, would have been good 20 years from now. Now, I'm not saying that anybody's going to know if a band or a song is going to be good 20 years from now, but make the best goddamn song you can make, and don't worry about if it sounds like what's on the radio.
0:31:56 - (Isaac Kuhlman): That's my point. Because I've talked to countless artists and every one of them says at certain times in the band, we. We tried to do this, it didn't work. And it was usually, we tried to do what was successful at the time. It didn't work. You could watch this podcast, there's 100 plus episodes now. I would say 80% of the time I bring this. Well, actually, 100% of the time I bring it up. About 80% of the episodes.
0:32:20 - (Isaac Kuhlman): If you listen to what the artist says, it's when something didn't work. It's because we try to do what was popular at the time. When we had the ability to create our own music and write the songs that we wanted to write. That's when it worked the best. Weezer is a great example. Nirvana is a great example. Like all these bands that just got to do what they want to do, insecticide or sorry, in utero almost never got released because Nirvana was trying to do what they wanted to do, right. And reckon was like, fuck that. We want you to do the same thing that Nevermind was we want that recreation. They said hell no.
0:32:50 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And that that album is still widely loved today because they didn't just write nevermind number two.
0:32:55 - (Anthony Merchant): No, it's what Kurt Cobain Wander. Right. And you're, you know, that's the other thing is like, maybe if you do, you know, again, going back to my, like, hypothetical, if people didn't do the same thing in the new millennium, I think Kurt Cobain probably would have. I don't. I think if Nirvana would have stayed together, I think whatever Nirvana would have put out in, like, the year 2001 would not have sounded like nevermind or in utero. I don't think he would have kept going back to that. Well, I think maybe he would have pushed things and not to say I think he would have stayed in, you know, something within that. I don't.
0:33:24 - (Anthony Merchant): I don't think they would have all of a sudden become, like, a bluegrass band or something like that. Or he would have jumped on, like, third wave ska. Like, all of a sudden they add a horn section. But, like, whatever it is, I think he would have done something different. But, yeah, like, I don't see him writing either, because even, yeah, like, in utero. I mean, that was very anti them trying to be even. Like. I mean, Steve Albini's a legend now, but that's not the, like, star producer to use on your fucking record.
0:33:50 - (Anthony Merchant): You know what I mean? That's not the producer a major label wants you to use at that time.
0:33:54 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Even. Even Steve Albini was even known at that time was kind of like, not a. Not a. Not a very well loved producer by major labels, let's put it that way. They didn't want people to use him to put out a major record. For example, I'll give you one piece of information that I did a research paper right around about a year or two after Kurt Cobain died. I think it was in junior high or high school at the time.
0:34:20 - (Isaac Kuhlman): And in it, I found that in an interview, Kurt Cobain said, right, this is roughly, maybe three to six months before he died. He said that he hated everybody in the music industry. He didn't want to play with his band anymore. The only person he wanted to play music with was Michael Stipe from REm. So imagine if that came to fruition.
0:34:41 - (Anthony Merchant): That would be interesting. I've heard, and I've heard Michael Stipe. I've seen things later on where Michael Stipe has talked about, like, I think there was some kind of plan to try to, like, around when he killed himself. Like, to get him off drugs, to be like, yeah, like, let's do a band. Like, I think Michael Stipe was into it to try to help him. But even that. Yeah, that would be. Which. I mean, Michael Stipe is another where, like. I mean, I like Rem enough.
0:35:03 - (Anthony Merchant): I will say I think they're a little overrated, though. I do think they've influenced tons of bands. But, like, I think Michael Stipes is another where I will say, even though they're not my all time favorite band, I don't think you could ever accuse them of writing the same record over and over again. I think they did. Like I did. I do think they kept doing different shit. And I think he is one who didn't care if, like, you know, in the year 2007, if, like, that REM record didn't sell millions of albums. Like, I think they were happy in the pocket they existed in.
0:35:29 - (Anthony Merchant): And even though he seems like a curmudgeon, it doesn't seem super. Like, I mean, I don't. He doesn't seem like a guy I'd want to hang out with, to be honest. He's not really screams, like, ability or what he. I've heard stories, like, let me put it that way. He doesn't really want to take a picture with you. He doesn't want to sign anything. He'll shake your hand. He'll shake your hand. Been like, yeah, but he doesn't want to hear about, like, how much you love his band.
0:35:52 - (Anthony Merchant): But, like, yeah, that would be interesting, that timeline of, like, what they would do. Because I think he's just like, kirk obeying where if they released now in the year 2000, I don't think it would sound like REm or Nirvana. It would be interesting to see what they do. You know, I could see them making some weird electronica record, like, with all fucking, you know, like, patch it. Like, no real instruments all, like, and then doing it too on, like, pro Tools circa 2000.
0:36:15 - (Anthony Merchant): It's just crashing left and right. Like, them just trying to fucking make this album and just trying to use, like, you know, all that digital audio stuff in the early days. Like, but I could totally see them doing that and just, you know, like, making an album that has zero guitar on it. Like having Kurt Cobain and Michael Stipe and just zero distorted guitar. Like, zero anything that made people, you know, a fan of either of them, you know, as a fan. And again, this goes back to, I think you can be as weird as you want as an artist.
0:36:48 - (Anthony Merchant): I think band. I think fans also have the right to, like, totally drop you if all of a sudden you stop doing everything that made you popular. Like, you know, if you get that inflated ego where you don't want to do what made you big, but then you're surprised when you alienated all your fans and then did something else and it didn't. It didn't go big. It's like, well, yeah, it wasn't you as the person they were celebrating or loved. Again, it goes back to. It was the song.
0:37:12 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, how many big bands break up and when bands go solo, nobody like Fallout Boy. When Fallout boy broke up, they all went solo. I saw Patrick Stump and basically a dive bar. Like, he wasn't playing arenas. Like, it's the singer of Fallout Boy, but it's not Fallout boy, you know? And, like, I think some people get that ego where they have a couple big songs or even one big song and go, oh, it's me, the artist that got so big. And it's like, I'm sorry, it's not. It's that song.
0:37:40 - (Anthony Merchant): They don't give a fuck about you. They don't care. Like, you know, they don't you. Yeah, you can't just write something. It's magically going to be big. So I think that's interesting. When people with the formula, they want nothing to do with what made them big in the first place. And I think as an artist, you have every right to do that. And I think a lot of those are the most real artists. But, like, by definition. But it's like, again, if everyone, if. If all of a sudden, like, you know, the sales dry up and people don't come out to your show because you refuse to play the hits and you're only playing the new weird stuff, or you're, like, also reimagining old songs where people can't tell what they are until you get to the chorus and go, oh, I know that song, but I didn't know it until, like, three minutes in.
0:38:20 - (Anthony Merchant): You know, you're not entitled to the fan base sticking with you either, but you can do those things. But also, fans have a right to just be like, all right, fuck this. I'm on to the next thing.
0:38:32 - (Isaac Kuhlman): If your ego is making you think that you're the reason why your song is great, sure, you wrote it, you get credit for it, you get the money for it. But as soon as you start feeling entitled as a person for that fame and that glory and that whatever you want to, you know, that sense of greatness, it usually backfires in an epic way. Like, you know, there's too many to even, you know, recount now. But I think that the moral, the story is, you know, if you write a great song, be grateful because it probably won't ever come around again. The chances of it coming around again is likely that you doing it in the first place. So.
0:39:10 - (Anthony Merchant): Yeah, and also, I mean, you know, again, sorry, not to go on a big tangent, but, like, I mean, I have a million points on these things, but, like, even the ones where even if you wrote that song, how many bands are out there now, even from the nineties, who, it's the lead singer who's left and that's it. And it's like hired guns now or whoever he has in the bandaid. Like, even if that guy was the initial songwriter and wrote those songs, most of them are playing their old shit. They're not playing the new songs.
0:39:38 - (Anthony Merchant): It doesn't have the same vibe.
0:39:40 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Everybody's like, we don't give a fuck.
0:39:42 - (Anthony Merchant): It's the same guy writing it. But again, like, that ego of, like, there's something about the three of. And we'll go back to nineties. I mean, Everclear. I've interviewed their original drummer, Greg Eckler. Not original, but basically he played on all the big shit. Any. Any big Everclear song. It's him on it. But, like, you know, art still does Everclear with whoever else is in Everclear. But, like, they play all the stuff that Greg played on. They don't play the new stuff.
0:40:06 - (Anthony Merchant): And when he left and the bass player left, art kind of had that thing where he'd go in interviews and it's like, fuck them. Like, I wrote the songs. Like, what do they do? But it's like, they've re recorded those songs, I don't know, many times with other people. They never sound the same. They never have the same feeling. They go. They go play those albums front to back with different guys. It doesn't have the same feeling. Like, it doesn't matter that art wrote those songs with Craig and Greg out of the picture and you just have hired guns.
0:40:31 - (Anthony Merchant): It doesn't. It. It lost all its feeling. I don't care if you. He wrote Santa Monica, but Santa Monica sounds different when you go here live.
0:40:43 - (Isaac Kuhlman): I do appreciate you being here. Quickly go ahead and tell everybody how they can hear more from you and how they can check out all the stuff that you do.
0:40:50 - (Anthony Merchant): Oh, thank you. So, I mean, I. The main thing is the power court hour, like you brought up earlier, I do that right now. I'm doing it bi weekly. If I get more, I don't know if I feel like doing more. I might go back to weekly. But right now, it's bi weekly. Basically do interviews. It's a radio show slash podcast. Podcast. Obviously the most accessible. I mean, I would say go, you know, radio show. If you want to listen, that's eight to eleven eastern on Friday nights. But I also realize it's a specific time you got to tune in and all that.
0:41:20 - (Anthony Merchant): They're about the same. I do interviews on that. It's a three hour radio show, so I'll play music. Like, if I interview someone and we talk about a record, like, I had Scott Lucas from local h on last week, and we talked about whatever happened to PJ Souls, and I just. I played the record front to back after, like, we talked about the album for, like, 45 minutes, and we just played the album. So like, it is fun. I would say tune in, but I get the podcast is probably more accessible.
0:41:43 - (Anthony Merchant): So if you want to go listen to that power court hour podcast, it is up. I can't think of a place it's not up at. It's on YouTube. I've gotten a little better. Video interviews. There's a lot more last. For a long time, it was just audio only because I was also only a radio show for like from 2016 to 2020, it was only a radio show, then became a podcast. But anyways, our court hour on Instagram, on Facebook and Twitter.
0:42:08 - (Anthony Merchant): That's where I'm at social media wise. You can find the show on YouTube. You can find anywhere you listen to podcasts. I also, if you don't mind, I just started another one with my co worker who I work in radio, so I do a shit ton of shows. We won't get into all that, but words and senses about things and stuff is a podcast. I just started with my buddy. And honestly, if you like, like, even what you and I are doing, both of us work in radio.
0:42:29 - (Anthony Merchant): And he's a musician. Like, he gigs his ass off, like, with local bands. Like, he plays with like, every fucking band in Jamestown. So this guy is like playing seven shows a week. So, like, it's just naturally about music. Like, I play bass. He plays bass. Like. Like, we literally, like every. The. A couple episodes ago, I went on for like a half hour about strap locks on guitars. Like, we just had a 30 minutes discussion about strap locks on fucking guitars.
0:42:56 - (Anthony Merchant): Like, things like that. So, I mean, you know, if you like music, it's everything from music history because he's also not into the same shit. So I'll talk about, like, like, the stuff we're talking about pop, punk and emo and stuff. And he's talking about like, the Beatles and Elo and stuff. So, like, there's a nice myth. You know, there's a nice, like, kind of everything. The words and sentences about things and stuff. I know it's a long fucking. It's a. It's a fallout boy song title, but, uh, yeah, you can go find that also wherever you find podcasts. So, yeah, if you want to follow me online, go check those out and, uh. Yeah, I don't know. I do a lot of. I do a lot in radio and audio. I talk. I talk a lot of.
0:43:45 - (Isaac Kuhlman): Thats the show for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you learned anything or liked what you heard on the show today, please show us some support and subscribe to this channel and like comment and share this video with a friend or put it up on social media. I hate to keep keep asking, but without those small actions, the YouTube bots pretty much ignore this channel. Putting these videos out is a lot of work. If you want to show your appreciation, please consider purchasing some of our musical accessories or merch from our store@poweredbyrock.com.
0:44:10 - (Isaac Kuhlman): you can read our blog and follow us in the links below as well. Those are the plugs and that's all I have. I'll see you soon for the next episode. Until then, rock on.